i started off very excited about this project, but now i'm not so sure. the number of bugs is immense - the activity ranking on SF is high, but it seems mostly from unanswered problem reports. the temperament of the people on the forum is often dismissive or hostile compared to most other OS projects - if anybody spends the time to answer a question at all. also, offers to contribute have been met with flames - i think it was shameful and sad how people treated the guy who wanted to set up a new forum - no matter how poorly he went about his effort - he was honestly trying to help. you would think that might count for something.
i've deployed fckeditor on several systems in the last few months, but the number of problems, bugs and complaints from one client recently forced me to switch to another editor (and rewrite all of the integration stuff). it seems like basic things like pasting plain text, or creating hyper links are just not working very well. it just feels like fck is crumbling under its long list of features.
...so i'm wondering what other people think - and i would love to hear from fredck if he would like to comment. would it help to invite other developers? are all these problems being worked on? is this project too big for one person to manage? i want to see this project succeed, and i'm looking for some good news, but it just doesn't feel like it's on a stable path.
i'm not inviting a flame war. these are my honest observations, and my sincere curiousity and concern, so if you don't have anything constructive to say, please refrain from attacks.
thanks,
stephen
i've deployed fckeditor on several systems in the last few months, but the number of problems, bugs and complaints from one client recently forced me to switch to another editor (and rewrite all of the integration stuff). it seems like basic things like pasting plain text, or creating hyper links are just not working very well. it just feels like fck is crumbling under its long list of features.
...so i'm wondering what other people think - and i would love to hear from fredck if he would like to comment. would it help to invite other developers? are all these problems being worked on? is this project too big for one person to manage? i want to see this project succeed, and i'm looking for some good news, but it just doesn't feel like it's on a stable path.
i'm not inviting a flame war. these are my honest observations, and my sincere curiousity and concern, so if you don't have anything constructive to say, please refrain from attacks.
thanks,
stephen
RE: Wondering about the future of this projec
I must be the dismissive and hostile one. Sorry.
Seriously tho, I'd argue that point. I've seen hostile and dismissive, and this forum isn't it. Even compared to other OS "support" groups. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I know, as I've been up and down that road so many times... satan just waves now. :-p
Heh. Thus the nature of Open Source. It's different than commercial development. You know this if you work with other projects. You should also know that the source is "Open". Fred has been willing to integrate a contributer's patches, so anyone can be involved! Invitation is out!
But this IS open source, and this IS a big project, and so far FredCK has held on tight to the leader role. Which, if you REALLY mess with open source, you should know can be a good thing. Brings it closer to commercial type stuff, as one person says yea or nay, vs. community running hither and thither. Balance is hard to come by...
Basically I'd give FredCK some more time. No one is stopping you from doing whatever you want yourself. You've got the source, and apparently you know developers with spare time, so sally forth, and please send us your mods as patches, so we too can be better.
As for other editors, there are tons of 'em out there. Lots of tutorials on how to build one yourself even. Now, as to how many are released with LGPL, I dunno, but not the major ones, neh? Sadly, not everyone believes as FredCK does, that some stuff should just be free, no strings, free. Eh, it's all an illusion anywhay. But why not keep it a happy illusion? Neh? Why the moaning, and digs at the forum supporters? I've seen some really horrible Open Source projects! Scary, man! fckeditor is doing damn fine, if you look at the spectra. So don't lose hope! FredCK is seasoned, and I have faith. Actually, I'm quite satisfied as it is. I don't really care what happens next, as this has already been far out and quite wonderful. Plus, I dig FredCK's "freedom" bit. Hear! Hear! ipsum vidum roxum! Yay!
RE: Wondering about the future of this projec
Fred has accepted a patch I've sent, so I have no experience of 'offers to contribute being met with flames'.
I do find answering questions on this forum to be hard -- people should read ESR (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html) before asking. As an example, a question which has just come up in another thread reads: "Does anyone have any information about ExecuteNamedCommand?". I hope you don't think my answer to it is 'dismissive or hostile'. When people answering questions have limited time, only well-asked questions will get useful answers.
I'm glad you've found another editor which suits you better. For my purposes the bug/feature mix of FCKeditor is OK, and of course I'm fixing bugs, if I can, when they get in my way.
I agree that FCKeditor doesn't need more features -- it already compares well with other projects in that respect -- I'd like to see it fix some of the bugs which every HTML editor seems to have -- like the Firefox extra history entries problem.
You don't need to be invited to be a developer to participate: Fix a bug and post the patch to the bug report. If a new version comes out and Fred hasn't included the fix, then you would be right to complain, but my experience indicates that won't happen.
Tom
What other editor did you use?
Hi.
Me to have been waiting for a full fledged FCKeditor.
I belive the creator is a hardworking man with best intentions. And wish him best luck with this project.
But now I'm to looking around for other editor solutions out on the http://www.
Could you say something about what other editor you used and why you picked that one.
RE: What other editor did you use?
and just to be clear - i only switched for this one project - heaven help me if i have to go back and reintegrate another editor on all of the projects i've used fck on.
also, the primary reasons that i switched was because the main two things the the content people wanted to do didn't work well in fck (at least in firefox): pasting plain text, and adding links. they didn't want to have to go through multiple steps/dialogs to paste plain text, and the link editing dialog in fck is very buggy (at least in FF). i tried to see if there was a way to fix fck, but moving to tinymce was just easier given deadlines.
RE: Wondering about the future of this projec
also, i full well understand the nature of OS, from the days when i dedicated part of a team i was managing to help work out some issues that Linus was having with file locking in XFS, and the contributions i make personally on a day to day basis beginning back with early mysql. i also understand that it is generally a good sign when people are interested enough in a project to ask important questions, and a bad sign when prominent members of the community are snide or defensive about it.
it also goes without saying that anybody, with any random coding style can contribute patches so i don't need to be told that either (we also know what happens when there is not a code review process in place to complement this). however, as many of us are rolling out systems where stability and client satisfaction is critical to day to day operations, i believe it is fair to ask how this project will remain stable and supported moving forward. this question is not only in my best interests personally, it's also in the best interests of the project.
we all know that some blend of coordinated development is a better way to encourage long term sustainability of a project (OS or not) than random patches alone and a one man show. and there appear to me to be too many core problems for any one person to handle in his/her spare time with fck. so i'm curious to know what the future holds - and what other people's read on the situation is. i'm not critisizing or maoning - i'm asking a question, and relaying my experiences. i'm frankly worried about how the project is being run...there, i said it.
i like fck. i like the architecture - but i'm a coder, so i don't spend as mich time using it as my clients. so when i get bug reports or complaints and i start tinkering around as a user and i realize there are some pretty basic things that are just broken with no end in sight, i naturally get worried.
and as far as forum questions being 'hard' to answer - this is no different than on any other forum. there will always be newbies, and we all have to keep in mind that everyone's first language is not english - and forums are about helping people. helping a person get their question stated properly and then answering it is the thing that enriches the net for the next person with the same poorly phrased question. that is exactly what a forum is for,a nd that phenomenon is exactly how many of us know some of the things we know.
yes, yes, yes, i know. if it's not working out for me i could just use something else, go somewhere else, but obviously i'm not ready to do that yet. i'm just hoping to elevate the level of discussion here, if i may be so bold. and it would really be nice to change the tone from mocking and dismissive to "people helping people". and xenden, i'm sorry if you've had much more negative forum experiences than this one, but i guess i've tended to avoid them - those are the types of communities that usually fail. i'm not looking for a battle, i'm just hoping for better and more Open collaboration and communication. free expression without fear of flame.
i want to have faith, and maybe i do have some, but unfortunately faith alone doesn't keep web sites up and running or projects alive.
i know that fred doesn't owe me/us anything, and i'm already extremely grateful for the work that he's done. i accept his gift humbly the way i do with all such gifts.
...i'm just wondering...
RE: Wondering about the future of this project
I am one of those newbs. and im sure most of the seasoned people here (maybe including xenden!) get tired of the ...simple and you should have read the directions before postings, posts.
But as far as OS goes.. i think fck is doing really well and fck is a great product... most of my problems are because I dont know JS well enough.. I am working on that though.
I hope to give something back .. and if it cant be technical help.. maybe i can spare some change.
Thanks to everyone here whoe makes this project a total success....
RE: Wondering about the future of this project
Hello Stephen,
).
Ill try to be concrete and give my general point of view regarding some topics.
### Bugs
I know we have a long list of bugs. Is that bad? I dont think so.
If you take a closer look at the list, you will find out that there are just a few critical bugs and almost all of those are related to intrinsic limits and bugs of the browsers. Those bugs are sometimes impossible to solve with only JavaScript (like the history bug on Firefox). I started reporting those bugs to the relative browsers developers, so lets wait for their feedback.
Other bugs are very specific usage cases that, as you can imagine, cannot be identified in the development phase and that impact in a small number of users.
There also have many duplicate and invalid bugs. Ive already started doing a cleanup there. Any help is appreciated on identifying those cases.
Why do we have so many bugs in the list? Because this is an Open Source project, and the bugs are there, visible to everybody. In this way anyone can work to find out a solution to that, but just a very few users try to do it. Also, that list reflects the huge community that we have around the project. It means that we have thousands of testers out there and this will only give us a better product everyday.
On commercial software the bugs are also there, but you dont have an open list of them. Also, on commercial software, people are willing to pay to have bugs fixed (paying for the licenses), while on Open Source, they just demand for them.
But, there is no worries regarding it. If you take a look at the Whats new? doc, you will see that every version brings lots of bugs fixing and I give much attention to it.
I hope that the number of problems, bugs and complaints you are facing have already been included in the bugs tracker.
### Forums
I know you are probably frustrated because your last message in the Forum has no answers. I think that this is the reason of your message. But if you take a look at the list, youll see that almost all messages have answers. We have so much activity there and many times, good answers are given. But you cant also request solutions for every question.
Regarding hostility, please dont generalize it base on one case. The community around the editor is big and nice. They are willing to participate, helping in some way. I admire people like xenden, bnoblet and many others, that have always been here, been useful to everybody. So please dont minimize their efforts.
Regarding the Slava forums case, my opinion was precise and professional, with no judgments. I also dont like some heavy messages he has had, but he acted in the wrong way, and in a community it is normal that people become angry and make their best to show that angry state.
### My participation in the Forums
It is well known that I offer e-mail support under donation. In respect to people who have paid for it, I just cant participate on the Forums or even give e-mail support to everybody. Fortunately we have a nice community that helps on it.
So, a good way to have some answers is subscribing for support. But in Open Source everything MUST be free, right?
### Contributions
I try to minimize the number of developers that officially participate in the project. One reason is that it is difficult to divide the core of the editor on specific development blocks. The other, is that usually you dont have enough quality in the contributions, so you must review, adapt, correct and enhance them before effectively introducing them.
I have tried including other people in the team, with low success. So I prefer to act as a filter to guarantee the editors quality.
But it doesnt mean that contributions are ignored. Everybody is invited to participate, posting solutions for bugs, using our Patches Tracker or sending corrections directly to my e-mail address. So, I also dont understand that flames.
### Donations
As every mature project, I dont work in the editor in my spare time. I do that on my working hours, which unfortunately represent the hours Im not sleeping
Im and independent analyst/programmer. So I do programming for living. Im not playing here. This is a serious thing.
So, as you and everybody here, we are working, and FCKeditor is one of my investments and as it, I expect some return from it. This is the right way to manage an Open Source project, otherwise it is destined to die. This is why FCKeditor has been active for more than 2 years and will be active forever.
The problem is that in the mind of almost everybody, Open Source has nothing to do with money. And this is the wrong way of viewing it.
I could go commercial and start making lots of money with it, but, as commented by xenden, I believe in Open Source and Ill always respect my decision to be hand by hand with OS.
But Open Source is not born today. We are used to it, and people must start to become mature enough to understand the importance of giving something back. There are lots of people who have deployed FCKeditor on several systems and earned money with it. We have 40.000 downloads per month. Imagine how good it would be to the project if every developer that uses it give a donation back at least once in their life.
The sad thing is read some people saying: ok, I give a donation if Ill know exactly were will the money be spent. I dont want to see that they are using that money to take a beer with their friends hey take it easy here. Everybody likes to take a beer, travel or just have some money to the future. There are also basic needs, like give food to you wife and kids. And of course, there is also the structure needed to develop and maintain the project. So, if I cant get it here, Ill look for it somewhere else.
It doesnt mean Im having nothing from it. Fortunately some people understand it and are contributing to the project and this moves the engine.
I would really like to give 100% of my time to FCKeditor. This is one of my dreams. So, this month I decided to find out solutions to make that dream come true. Ill be working on ways to improve my revenue from it.
I hope you understand the importance of it and I ask for suggestions and comments from everybody.
### The future of the project
I see a nice future for the project. Im giving all my best to it. As I told you, people started donating and this is a key thing for its future. We have just released the first stable version of the 2.0 series, and Im working hard in the 2.1. Ill also work on setting up a CVS so important changes will be available during the development phase.
### Final words
I appreciate your participation. I hope that my message helps everybody understand a little bit more about the project.
I saw you comments for xendens answer lets give the change to everybody give comments to it freely. Some people just want to give a positive view of things.
I would really appreciate concrete suggestions to enhance the project (I dont mean features requests
And Im sorry if the message got confused in some part of it it just got too long.
Thanks to everybody. Best wishes,
FredCK
Frederico Knabben
CKEditor Project Lead and CKSource Owner
--
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RE: Wondering about the future of this project
I agree with you 100% but I do hope that you will NOT change the license of FCKEditor so as to make it impossible to be integrated with other Open Source projects. That would certainly break my heart.
I believe that we can all work together for the good of this project. It is indeed unkind and unfair for persons to be making demands while knowing full well that this is an open source project and they have to right to fix the problems themself. It's either we wait or try to find some other means of working together for the good of the project.
On the issue of streamlining revenues from FCK, I think you might want to setup something like charter support. In this support group users pay to have urgent bugs fixed or to get special feature request. Plus they will be given yearly support.
RE: Wondering about the future of this project
No worries about licensing changes... my intentions are to keep FCKeditor licensed under the LGPL (or another Open Source license) forever.
Thanks for the support ideas. Actually today people can subscribe for 1 year e-mail support making a donation. In this way they have priority over the hundreds of messages I receive everyday:
http://www.fckeditor.net/support/
Best regards,
FredCK
Frederico Knabben
CKEditor Project Lead and CKSource Owner
--
Follow us on: Twitter | Facebook | Google+ | LinkedIn
RE: Wondering about the future of this projec
I am very much looking forward to a CVS respository! As well as a next release!
RE: Wondering about the future of this projec
i'm happy to hear Fred's reply. he sets a good example for others to follow in giving serious consideration to the ideas of others who participate in this community. it should by now also be obvious how useful and productive it is to a project for its participants to have a better sense of what is in the heart and mind of its leader or leaders. i'm glad i asked the question - and i'm also glad that i've made no "demands" as some have suggested. this dialog is true to the spirit and nature of Open Source development.
Also, with regard to flames - i never meant to refer to Fred specifically, but there are others here who seem to like a fight more than helping or discussing ideas. this is not the first time i've raised questions other than "how do i do this" and been shot down. Fred is a gentleman and a professional.
i also hope that anyone who tosses the term "Open Source" around has also read the GNU Manifesto at least once (http://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html). this is where it started, and this is what it means. i read again every once in a while just for inspiration.
i'd also like to say that my question on this thread did not come from frustration that my last technical question was not answered. although i've only been following this project for about 5 months, my experience in general has been that many questions have gone answered. this comes from searching the forums, and asking questions myself. it is because of this that for any question that i see that i know anything about i've made an effort to provide help (it hasn't been much, but i'm trying) - no matter how poorly phrased the question might be. i guess i would just hope to see more of that. maybe my experience with the lack of help here is different than other people's, but i only compare my experience to that of other OS projects that i've been involved with. in fairness, it's not generalized based on one incident or one person.
importantly, combining issues of money with OS development can be a tricky balancing act - because often there are conflicting objectives at work. although there are variations to the model, successful projects have been able to survive largely by spreading the development load in a well structured and coordinated way. i'm very happy to hear Fred's announcement about the establishment of a CVS repository. i think this is a good next step toward building a solid long term development foundation. a project can only go so far with a patches tracker. history shows this. and i hope that the CVS repository will be used more for encouraging a more Open development model - rather than simply giving folks access to the latest changes. donations of money are important for helping to keep a project going, but a good development framework cannot be ignored - and it may be argued that a good development framework is more reliable in the long term. so if i could give any suggestion, it would be to allow a true belief and understanding of Open Source and distributed development be your guide moving forward - not only a desire to increase donations (although we all need money too). there are people here (including myself) who i'm sure would be willing to contribute (code, admin, hosting, etc) in a more formalized way.
so, i wish Fred all the best in bringing his dream to reality, and i hope people don't ever stop asking provocative questions in a spirit of shared learning and communication - in this community or any other.
-stephenrs
RE: Wondering about the future of this project
Maybe some of the posters here can also contribute the documentation as the information is a bit poor lately (although it holds a lot information).
Regarding the forum here on sourceforge.net I can say that I am not quit happy the way it if functioning. The questions/replies are great, but if has more to do with the forum software. When performing a search I mostly do not get the information I need and to make things clear it would sometimes be nice if we have the ability to use addtional markup tags. Maybe you could consider to step over to a forum software and host is directly on the fckeditor.net website, but this is just a thought...
Having several bugs (or having a large list) is mostly not a big problem if you can categorise them in different areas (like severity or occurance). If you filter on those specific criteria you will notice that the buglist is not so large.
RE: Wondering about the future of this projec
FCK2 is great, but has way too many bugs and problems. I think this is a result of the development roadmap. Adding features during RC stage not smart. I think FCK2 is at RC level (just out of beta) right now and needs multiple RC releases to become stable.
I am thinking of fixing some bugs myself (if I understand javascript well enough, which do not (yet)). The problem I have is that, although the project is open source, it's development is toally NOT open. I have no idea what fredck is doing, wat the latest state of the code is etc. If fredck would use the SF CVS repository, I could very well monitor the progress and write patches against the latest source. If I write a patch now, it's possible next week there will be FCK 2.0.1 and my patch is useless.
Since fredck does everything himself, he is VERY busy I guess. The problem with that is that most people here with bug reports, patches, suggestion etc never get an answer and probably think they are doing it for nothing.
It would be a great move if fredck opened up development so FCK can be a community project and just open source. If he doesn't, I would not be surprised with someone forks FCK and creates a community project, which would be a shame because fredck put so many hours in this.
We'll see how things go, I know for sure I'm dieing to see a new version with bugs fixed. Even if it's a beta release. With open development I would be testing a CVS snapshot right now probably...
RE: Wondering about the future of this projec
I've been using CKEditor for
I've been using CKEditor for years, and I'm truly impressed with how much work has been done on this project. I just implemented a custom plugin for the first time and have a few things to share about my experience.
First, the forums have way too many posts that go nowhere and are incomplete. Too many good questions go unanswered and it seems like people just give up. As a community, I think programmers have mostly accepted StackOverflow as the place to go for community support, so my suggestion would be to archive this forum and direct all new inquiries to StackOverflow.
Second, plugins need documentation. I spent a too much time trying to figure out how to use and integrate specific plugins. There should at least be code examples. I don't mind wading through source code if I have to, but example code would be nice if it were somehow included in the plugin description pages.
Third, I did come across a bug I would have liked to report, but I the bug tracking software requires a whole new user account, so I blew it off. I don't need any new accounts! I have a GIT account... it would be great if I could go there and submit an issue.
Great work Fredrick! You've done an amazing job!
-JP